If you run a women’s community space, you provide coaching for women, or you are writing a book to inspire women, it’s okay to describe your work in that way. If your target audience truly is women, call them “women.”
Thanks for this, Rey! I am with you - I get why/how the term "woman-identified" came about, but I don't quite get what it is supposed to mean. To me, it sounds like either it refers to someone who is a woman ( in which case, why not just call them that?), or it refers to someone that the person using the term perceives as a woman (in which case, it's harmfully presumptive and shouldn't be used).
This sticky problem of inclusivity and separate space is a big one, and we need to have lots of discussions about it. I agree with your assessment that if a space is for "women only" it is not inclusive, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as the space holders are honest and transparent about who the space is for. I'd much rather know that I'm not included than think that I am only to find out that I wasn't even considered by those who decided who the space should be for.
You brought up a very important idea: yes, we need to be willing and able to say when/if a space is not open to cis men. In the same way that white people need to learn to not assume they will be welcome in spaces intended for BIPOC, cis men need to learn to not assume they will be welcome anywhere they want to go. While I agree that ultimately, we need all genders included equally, that is nowhere near the reality right now, and people who are not cis men have a right to sometimes have spaces where they can feel reasonably sure they won't have to grapple with the presence of privileged entitlement. Just as I, as a white person, cannot honestly guarantee I won't unintentionally invoke a racist attitude or belief among BIPOC, even the most educated, sensitive cis man cannot honestly guarantee that they won't unintentionally say or do something that perpetuates gender marginalization, and it can be very healing for us to sometimes get a break from the incessant threat of that marginalization.
There is a distinct difference between a marginalized group creating separate space for the sake of relief from ever-present marginalization, and a dominant group creating space that is either intentionally or ignorantly unwelcoming to marginalized people. We need to have room for both bridge-building and protected spaces, and we should not be afraid to say who is being excluded and why. If our reasons for excluding are to make a space safer for marginalized folks, there's no reason not to say so. And if our reasons are not equitable, we need to be honest about them in order to learn what we need to learn to stop excluding.
I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating: we are, as a society, in an acute "growing pains" stage of awareness regarding gender. A lot has changed culturally in the last few decades, and especially the last few years, and none of the dust has really settled yet. I am glad for writers like you because I do believe what we really need is lots of spaces where people feel that they are allowed to ask questions or start conversations about gender-related topics that seem strange or confusing. I know that many non-cis people get tired of educating cis people about gender, and I hope that cis people respect that. That being said, those questions have to be answered for dominant culture to get comfortable enough with the nuances of gender to be willing to be allies for us. So people like you, who are not just willing, but proactively educating and starting discussions, are invaluable, and I thank you for taking that on.
I'm with you and Anastasia about the nonbinary spaces. I would love to have that once in a while, and hope that it would be not just nonbinary, but also agender-inclusive.
So many great points! LC, my friend, you have an essay here... you could post this! ...we could post this as a guest post! (No pressure, though.)
I really appreciate your perspective on a number of things here.
I think that's exactly the issue with "women-identified" - is used in practice to refer to people the speaker presumes are women, which is incorrect, because the people themselves know what gender they are, but an outside observer may not.
Spot on that when the dominant group creates space, it may be unwelcoming to marginalized people. That makes so much sense to me in the context of a women's space trying to include nonbinary people, for example. Because the organization of the group, the group rules and limitations, etc, come from women, nonbinary people are often going to feel marginalized in that space. One of the reasons I really like the nonbinary+agender space organized for nonbinary and agender people, by the same, is it has the potential to be a truly protected space for those folks.
Good point about a nonbinary & agender inclusive space. Perhaps other identities such as genderfluid, genderqueer, Two Spirit should be explicitly invited also.
Thanks so much, LC, for sharing! I learn so much from you and greatly appreciate your insights.
Love this, Rey!! This is something I struggle with and I share many of your opinions and thoughts. I also find it so hard to express how it feels to move through the world as "woman" (bc people perceive me as a woman) and to express my individual experience as nonbinary. I don't get the "women-identified" thing either. Like- if someone identifies as a woman then call them a woman!!
Many "women only" spaces were created as a safer space for women, but aren't safe for ppl like you and I. Lately I've been thinking about creating exclusively nonbinary spaces. Liminal spaces. I think that's a space I'd like to exist in.
River, I would love an exclusively nonbinary space. I feel like I get that experience chatting one-on-one with people, but even in trans support groups people pretty often say stuff that ignores the nonbinary experience or assumes everyone's goal is to "pass" as a gender. Doesn't feel safe. Exactly.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. This really resonates with me.
I've grappled with these ideas a lot. I am a queer cis woman and have a partner who is a cis man. I hate feeling like my life partner is not welcome in spaces that are part of my creative life that I want to share with him. I also understand the need for safe space and the harm people of his gender have caused and continue to cause for others. In general, I'm just getting to the point that I hate how ingrained gender is in our world.
Thanks for sharing, Melissa! Yes, I definitely relate to the struggle when a life partner is not welcome in the same spaces you are. And I do wish gender was less present everywhere also.
Hi Melissa, You specified that it's the creative spaces where your partner might not be welcomed that are painful. Does it help to focus on the part where it's "just some" creative spaces where he might not be welcomed, specifically healing spaces where the creativity is a tool.
I've struggled with this myself quite a bit but from a different angle.
Being assigned male at birth, it has always been assumed that men's spaces are where I "belong." But men's spaces have always felt horribly out of step with who I am at my core. I always felt like I was just too damned sensitive but "guy talk" which I've always questioned because I just couldn't see how it served or was health for guys just cuts me like glass. I became really socially isolated because getting together with too many guys (with the exception of a very small group that I'd found didn't do the "guy talk" thing) always ended with me calling someone out for being offensive, or me just wanting out of that space and fast.
So, always knowing I was different but honestly thinking that it was just because I liked being with women more than I did men. For decades I never entertained I might be non-bi or perhaps even a trans woman.
My entire life has been spent standing on the outside of groups of women aching to join in. Only now am I realizing that this aspect of social "transition," inclusion in spaces WITHOUT MEN, is as much about healing as anything.
Rey made the comment in an earlier piece that it's so hard to just say "spaces without men."
There has been harm perpetuated on others by men. Others who were targeted because they didn't fit the definition of what a man is or they were seen as women.
This feels to me to be similar to the work that still remains to be done regarding ethnic and racial harm done largely by people of European origin (I just noticed that I'm clearly in that group and that I haven't done the work I need to do - I don't have that language and that language is earned when you do the work - wow).
Bottom line, I'm trans feminine and trying to figure out if that means non-bi or trans woman for me. Spaces without men are essential for my healing. It's taken decades of work for me to recognize that as a truth for me.
I NEED to leave people in historically oppressed racial and ethnic groups alone to help each other heal. In the meantime I must do that work and only after doing that work/if ever will my presence in groups healing from their trauma be constructive (and likely only when working with the group that did the oppressing - me - is the purpose of that group).
Can you talk to your partner about the harms that have been perpetuated on "others" by men. Those harms have likely harmed him as well. And does he recognize the impact of his presence on what are healing spaces? For me it helps to recognize what these spaces are actually doing. I'm 60 and "clearly" AMAB. If there is a group that I'd like to join and I worry my presence will be a hindrance for others, I introduce myself with some version of "this is who I am and I'm here to heal." That attitude as much as the words seems to calm fears that I'm there as a man. Only recently have I realized that I'm never anywhere as a "man."
My apologies for the length. This is such a critical topic and Rey is right that needing, perhaps for a time, to exclude people from "another group" a group that is now seen as having perpetuated harm is hard. And necessary. I've both been on both sides of that discussion while at the same time, I've never really been on the "men's side" of that discussion.
Thanks for sharing, Shayne. I feel like this is less about the other commenter's partner (which served as a good starting point for the discussion) and more about the experiences you've had in gendered spaces.
It makes sense to me that men's spaces didn't feel right for you at all, and perhaps because of that dissonance, women's spaces could be necessary as a place for healing and feeling affirmed in your gender identity. I hope you do get to find spaces that are affirming and healing for you.
It was about my experience and at the same time I was hoping to tie that to what I saw as one of your primary points, the importance of being intentional and clearly stating those intentions for a space.
I was discussing this with a close friend who is a cis woman that has a women’s support group at her office. We had a very interesting discussion about who likely would and would not be welcomed and what might sway people to allow anyone AMAB to participate in that group regardless of their gender identity. The bottom line was that not interfering in their group dynamics and spending some time just listening. Pretty much the same thing that any group wants. Respect for what they are doing and a commitment to learning about how the group works before jumping in and derailing their work.
I feel like I need to leave a note here. I left my response to Melissa before reading down to what was the very next post by LC. There is a lot in my post that is similar to what LC says, just less articulate than LC. I considered deleting my post after scrolling down but have decided that as a trans feminine person who has spent a lot of time in male spaces, my post is worth leaving for the bits and pieces where I delve into how that has shaped my perspectives.
My apologies to anyone who slogged through my post and disagrees. I wish I could precede my post with a warning that there's a post that follows with many of the same points and it's very well written.
Hi Shayne, I'm just catching up on the comments here and I really appreciate your perspective! I'm glad you didn't delete your post. You were speaking from your own experience which is inherently different from anyone else's, even if you come to the same conclusions. Thanks for sharing!
This describes my life and struggles with groups, feeling othered, redefining feminism. Thank you. I belong to a group that uses "all oppressed genders welcome." Softer way to say no cis men. I LOVE THIS: “No cis men” is a very clear way to say what a lot of these descriptions hint at. But, we’re all scared of saying cis men aren’t welcome, aren’t we. Yep, they got us with their privilege.
Thanks for reading and reaching out! That's an interesting phrasing of "all oppressed genders." I hadn't heard that before. I appreciate your comment, thank you!
I appreciate this post as I have been trying to think through the best use of terminology for a panel I'm moderating that is focused on women. I want it to be inclusive of all women and have seen people use terminology in different ways, so I appreciated reading your perspective on this.
Thanks so much for reading and responding! And yeah, a lot of people say stuff especially around gender that doesn't make sense, no need to feel guilty, but glad you are going to speak differently in future!
Thanks for this, Rey! I am with you - I get why/how the term "woman-identified" came about, but I don't quite get what it is supposed to mean. To me, it sounds like either it refers to someone who is a woman ( in which case, why not just call them that?), or it refers to someone that the person using the term perceives as a woman (in which case, it's harmfully presumptive and shouldn't be used).
This sticky problem of inclusivity and separate space is a big one, and we need to have lots of discussions about it. I agree with your assessment that if a space is for "women only" it is not inclusive, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as the space holders are honest and transparent about who the space is for. I'd much rather know that I'm not included than think that I am only to find out that I wasn't even considered by those who decided who the space should be for.
You brought up a very important idea: yes, we need to be willing and able to say when/if a space is not open to cis men. In the same way that white people need to learn to not assume they will be welcome in spaces intended for BIPOC, cis men need to learn to not assume they will be welcome anywhere they want to go. While I agree that ultimately, we need all genders included equally, that is nowhere near the reality right now, and people who are not cis men have a right to sometimes have spaces where they can feel reasonably sure they won't have to grapple with the presence of privileged entitlement. Just as I, as a white person, cannot honestly guarantee I won't unintentionally invoke a racist attitude or belief among BIPOC, even the most educated, sensitive cis man cannot honestly guarantee that they won't unintentionally say or do something that perpetuates gender marginalization, and it can be very healing for us to sometimes get a break from the incessant threat of that marginalization.
There is a distinct difference between a marginalized group creating separate space for the sake of relief from ever-present marginalization, and a dominant group creating space that is either intentionally or ignorantly unwelcoming to marginalized people. We need to have room for both bridge-building and protected spaces, and we should not be afraid to say who is being excluded and why. If our reasons for excluding are to make a space safer for marginalized folks, there's no reason not to say so. And if our reasons are not equitable, we need to be honest about them in order to learn what we need to learn to stop excluding.
I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating: we are, as a society, in an acute "growing pains" stage of awareness regarding gender. A lot has changed culturally in the last few decades, and especially the last few years, and none of the dust has really settled yet. I am glad for writers like you because I do believe what we really need is lots of spaces where people feel that they are allowed to ask questions or start conversations about gender-related topics that seem strange or confusing. I know that many non-cis people get tired of educating cis people about gender, and I hope that cis people respect that. That being said, those questions have to be answered for dominant culture to get comfortable enough with the nuances of gender to be willing to be allies for us. So people like you, who are not just willing, but proactively educating and starting discussions, are invaluable, and I thank you for taking that on.
I'm with you and Anastasia about the nonbinary spaces. I would love to have that once in a while, and hope that it would be not just nonbinary, but also agender-inclusive.
So many great points! LC, my friend, you have an essay here... you could post this! ...we could post this as a guest post! (No pressure, though.)
I really appreciate your perspective on a number of things here.
I think that's exactly the issue with "women-identified" - is used in practice to refer to people the speaker presumes are women, which is incorrect, because the people themselves know what gender they are, but an outside observer may not.
Spot on that when the dominant group creates space, it may be unwelcoming to marginalized people. That makes so much sense to me in the context of a women's space trying to include nonbinary people, for example. Because the organization of the group, the group rules and limitations, etc, come from women, nonbinary people are often going to feel marginalized in that space. One of the reasons I really like the nonbinary+agender space organized for nonbinary and agender people, by the same, is it has the potential to be a truly protected space for those folks.
Good point about a nonbinary & agender inclusive space. Perhaps other identities such as genderfluid, genderqueer, Two Spirit should be explicitly invited also.
Thanks so much, LC, for sharing! I learn so much from you and greatly appreciate your insights.
Love this, Rey!! This is something I struggle with and I share many of your opinions and thoughts. I also find it so hard to express how it feels to move through the world as "woman" (bc people perceive me as a woman) and to express my individual experience as nonbinary. I don't get the "women-identified" thing either. Like- if someone identifies as a woman then call them a woman!!
Many "women only" spaces were created as a safer space for women, but aren't safe for ppl like you and I. Lately I've been thinking about creating exclusively nonbinary spaces. Liminal spaces. I think that's a space I'd like to exist in.
River, I would love an exclusively nonbinary space. I feel like I get that experience chatting one-on-one with people, but even in trans support groups people pretty often say stuff that ignores the nonbinary experience or assumes everyone's goal is to "pass" as a gender. Doesn't feel safe. Exactly.
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. This really resonates with me.
I've grappled with these ideas a lot. I am a queer cis woman and have a partner who is a cis man. I hate feeling like my life partner is not welcome in spaces that are part of my creative life that I want to share with him. I also understand the need for safe space and the harm people of his gender have caused and continue to cause for others. In general, I'm just getting to the point that I hate how ingrained gender is in our world.
Thanks for sharing, Melissa! Yes, I definitely relate to the struggle when a life partner is not welcome in the same spaces you are. And I do wish gender was less present everywhere also.
Hi Melissa, You specified that it's the creative spaces where your partner might not be welcomed that are painful. Does it help to focus on the part where it's "just some" creative spaces where he might not be welcomed, specifically healing spaces where the creativity is a tool.
I've struggled with this myself quite a bit but from a different angle.
Being assigned male at birth, it has always been assumed that men's spaces are where I "belong." But men's spaces have always felt horribly out of step with who I am at my core. I always felt like I was just too damned sensitive but "guy talk" which I've always questioned because I just couldn't see how it served or was health for guys just cuts me like glass. I became really socially isolated because getting together with too many guys (with the exception of a very small group that I'd found didn't do the "guy talk" thing) always ended with me calling someone out for being offensive, or me just wanting out of that space and fast.
So, always knowing I was different but honestly thinking that it was just because I liked being with women more than I did men. For decades I never entertained I might be non-bi or perhaps even a trans woman.
My entire life has been spent standing on the outside of groups of women aching to join in. Only now am I realizing that this aspect of social "transition," inclusion in spaces WITHOUT MEN, is as much about healing as anything.
Rey made the comment in an earlier piece that it's so hard to just say "spaces without men."
There has been harm perpetuated on others by men. Others who were targeted because they didn't fit the definition of what a man is or they were seen as women.
This feels to me to be similar to the work that still remains to be done regarding ethnic and racial harm done largely by people of European origin (I just noticed that I'm clearly in that group and that I haven't done the work I need to do - I don't have that language and that language is earned when you do the work - wow).
Bottom line, I'm trans feminine and trying to figure out if that means non-bi or trans woman for me. Spaces without men are essential for my healing. It's taken decades of work for me to recognize that as a truth for me.
I NEED to leave people in historically oppressed racial and ethnic groups alone to help each other heal. In the meantime I must do that work and only after doing that work/if ever will my presence in groups healing from their trauma be constructive (and likely only when working with the group that did the oppressing - me - is the purpose of that group).
Can you talk to your partner about the harms that have been perpetuated on "others" by men. Those harms have likely harmed him as well. And does he recognize the impact of his presence on what are healing spaces? For me it helps to recognize what these spaces are actually doing. I'm 60 and "clearly" AMAB. If there is a group that I'd like to join and I worry my presence will be a hindrance for others, I introduce myself with some version of "this is who I am and I'm here to heal." That attitude as much as the words seems to calm fears that I'm there as a man. Only recently have I realized that I'm never anywhere as a "man."
My apologies for the length. This is such a critical topic and Rey is right that needing, perhaps for a time, to exclude people from "another group" a group that is now seen as having perpetuated harm is hard. And necessary. I've both been on both sides of that discussion while at the same time, I've never really been on the "men's side" of that discussion.
Best wishes! Thanks for your thoughts.
Thanks for sharing, Shayne. I feel like this is less about the other commenter's partner (which served as a good starting point for the discussion) and more about the experiences you've had in gendered spaces.
It makes sense to me that men's spaces didn't feel right for you at all, and perhaps because of that dissonance, women's spaces could be necessary as a place for healing and feeling affirmed in your gender identity. I hope you do get to find spaces that are affirming and healing for you.
It was about my experience and at the same time I was hoping to tie that to what I saw as one of your primary points, the importance of being intentional and clearly stating those intentions for a space.
I was discussing this with a close friend who is a cis woman that has a women’s support group at her office. We had a very interesting discussion about who likely would and would not be welcomed and what might sway people to allow anyone AMAB to participate in that group regardless of their gender identity. The bottom line was that not interfering in their group dynamics and spending some time just listening. Pretty much the same thing that any group wants. Respect for what they are doing and a commitment to learning about how the group works before jumping in and derailing their work.
Thanks again for a thought provoking article.
I feel like I need to leave a note here. I left my response to Melissa before reading down to what was the very next post by LC. There is a lot in my post that is similar to what LC says, just less articulate than LC. I considered deleting my post after scrolling down but have decided that as a trans feminine person who has spent a lot of time in male spaces, my post is worth leaving for the bits and pieces where I delve into how that has shaped my perspectives.
My apologies to anyone who slogged through my post and disagrees. I wish I could precede my post with a warning that there's a post that follows with many of the same points and it's very well written.
Hi Shayne, I'm just catching up on the comments here and I really appreciate your perspective! I'm glad you didn't delete your post. You were speaking from your own experience which is inherently different from anyone else's, even if you come to the same conclusions. Thanks for sharing!
This describes my life and struggles with groups, feeling othered, redefining feminism. Thank you. I belong to a group that uses "all oppressed genders welcome." Softer way to say no cis men. I LOVE THIS: “No cis men” is a very clear way to say what a lot of these descriptions hint at. But, we’re all scared of saying cis men aren’t welcome, aren’t we. Yep, they got us with their privilege.
Thanks for reading and reaching out! That's an interesting phrasing of "all oppressed genders." I hadn't heard that before. I appreciate your comment, thank you!
This is great! Thank you for writing this.
Thanks so much for reading!
I appreciate this post as I have been trying to think through the best use of terminology for a panel I'm moderating that is focused on women. I want it to be inclusive of all women and have seen people use terminology in different ways, so I appreciated reading your perspective on this.
Thanks, Julie! I'm glad this was a helpful perspective. I hope your panel goes really well!
Great post, thank you. I’ve been guilty of saying women-identified in the past; this post taught me to never do it again and it makes a ton of sense.
Thanks so much for reading and responding! And yeah, a lot of people say stuff especially around gender that doesn't make sense, no need to feel guilty, but glad you are going to speak differently in future!
Yes, publish this or some form of it with LC! Some small hopefully constructive amount of pressure maybe.